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February 24, 2005

Comments

-ash

One question of clarification: "what would the implications of a christocentric reading be?" that is, if an anthropocentric reading leads us to salvation by faith, what does a christocentric reading lead us to? You say something of "by the faith of Christ," but what does this look like? (the former, of course, I am far more familiar with in lay-terms).

A point, on linguistics: If we cannot de facto link pistis with with the verb pisteou, then what ground is there for linking pistis to the ek pisteous of Habakkuk?

Is this whole "pistis" thing from the Greek? if so, can we make linguistic claims that link the Old and New Testaments in this way? I would assume that the Septuagint would be the method of doing this, but is this entirely reliable to base a whole semantic theory on- we would not attempt the same with the English translation of texts (one would hope) ?

I do apologise if I've missed the point here somewhat, or misunderstood, as I got lost in there a couple of times as you might expect(!) It's certainly an interesting thing. I remember begining a document by someone (Breuggmann[sp?] I think) on this whole debate, but found the language too unfamiliar and resolved to simply reading the appendicies. This, however, was far more accessible, albeit still difficult in places, but that is necessary really.

very interesting indeed.

-ash

andy goodliff

I have somewhat revised this post, hopefully making some of it clearer.

Gary Manders

I would agree with Ash, about needing some clarification. I love the general thrust of the argument but what are the implications for the Christocentric interpretation of Pistis Christou? How does it affect how we present the gospel and understand salvation? I guess I put Campbell on my reading list.

dritsema

I just came across your blog on pistis christou. I am currently having a debate with others about the thorny text of 1 Tim 2.15 "saved through childbearing." I argued that because this text is filled with grammatical difficultes (the verbs don's have subjects being one), that there is causes to look elsewhere for understanding. I cited this pistis christou debate as an example of how difficult some areas of biblical stuy are when worked on purely from a grammatical basis. Please check out the discussion on my page on 1 Tim 2.15 Childbearing. There are right now three comments. I would love for you to comment on this aspect of the debate, and if you give me permission I will add your page to my links list. Thanks a lot. God bless.

Ron Sirkel

Andy
This is the topic that has changed my whole view of what is called the gospel. There is so much I want to say about the faith of God or of Jesus but I still struggle with making it clear. Let me hear from you. Can the paper you quote by Campbell still be found on the internet? Do you have a copy you could e-mail? There is a great need for a contemporary book for the common man on "pistis christou". Do you have anymore references you have found that are written for the average Christian reader. I have read Hays, Martyns, Howard, and Ian Wallis, Wright, ect. These are specialists and their writings tend to be read within the guild of scholars and stay there, except for students and pastors. What about your paper on the subject? Send it to me.
I can't let this go, write to me.
Ron

Steffen Zimmermann

"pistis Christou"
It is only about the belief of the Jesu Christu, around the belief of the son of the Man and not around the belief of the sons of the people. The translation since Luther is wrong.

andy goodliff

Ron, I suggest getting hold of a copy of Douglas Cambpell's The Quest for Paul's Gospel. You're right once you understand pistis christou as a reference to the faith/fulness of Christ, I found the gospel made much better sense, a doctrine of salvation makes much better sense.

Ron

Andy
I ordered Campbell's book. I will give you a report later. Have you stayed in touch with him since his going to Duke?

Have you ever read George Fox (Quaker)? The "faith/fulness of" and the promised Spirit paradigm shift of this contemporary scholarship lends authority to the early Quaker experience of revelation (openings) and the life of Jesus filling the meetings (Holy Spirit).

I guess time will tell.

Peace
Ron

Seth

Campbell's work is outstanding, especially his book on Paul's gospel. He has a bigger book on the problem of justification coming out next year (fingers crossed!).

Here's a pretty good background article on the debate: http://www.presenttruthmag.com/archive/XLIV/44-3.htm

Grace and Peace,
Seth

P.S. Love the blog, Andy

Ron

Hi Andy
Campbell's new book arrived and I dived in with relish. Overall it was an eye opener, but difficult to read for the average person. That is, if one were not familiar with the terms and perspective it would be difficult to understand.
All in all, it pushes the "faith of" paradigm into a more comprehensive arena of its centrality to the gospel. I think "faith of" is synonymous to the gospel or the preaching of Jesus Christ.
Reconstructing the theology of salvation is a tall task and I look forward to his next book, mentioned by Seth, and hope it will deal with the JF model in a more fluid way, less technical. I hope, but scholars will do what scholars do and it may be up to a popular writer or preacher to present this to the public mind.
I think once "the faith" is preached again with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven, the works of God will again be manifest as the prototype shows "Peter preaching in Acts 10 to Cornelious and his friends"
I did like his treatment of Romans 1:8 - 3:20, like Martyns did with his Anchor Bible commentary on Galatians, responding to the "teachers or missionaries" with their view first and allowing them to see their error before he strikes with the outcome.
Again, I think "Pistis Christou" is the key to this last days ingathering and it is a sovereign work which no man can stop.(Too Bold?)
I appreciate every writer that takes on the task of reconstruction. The light does dispel the darkness and how great was that darkness.

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